Closed: Model 12 - Using A Hardware Pre-amp - Connecting and Configuring

[shredd]

Gotcha. Good on you for doing some homework/research/planning.
But think about it...shoot, you could get BOTH sets of cables, so you can try different configs. Don't worry about owning unused/"wasted" cables - in my studio, I have a cable for just about any possible connection I need/want to make, so that never holds me back.

 

[Mark Richards]

Model 12: Using A Hardware Pre-amp - Connecting and Configuring
Would someone kindly list/illustrate how to connect the following?
I am confused about cables, settings, and phantom power (thinking double 48v is probably not good).
Note: I haven't used hardware since the 90s. I'm very rusty.

1. Condenser Mic
2. Hardware Pre-Amp

...I'll be using a Summit Audio 2BA-221 (pic attached). It has XLR at +4 and 1/4-inch at -10 and there's also an insert. I'm wondering if that insert allows me to connect Model 12 to this pre--amp using a simple TRS Cable...

...I will be using an external pre amp and compressor. My research indicates that I have options...

...My M12 arrives Tuesday. I am trying to order the cables and have a plan beforehand.

(It would have been most helpful had you provided in your initial post the above information and below pre-amp specs so we would have a clear picture of the situation.)

So, to summarize for the benefit of others who may land here in the future:

According to the pre-amp's OM, page 7 & 8:
1/4” TRS Balanced Line Level Output
This is a -10dB, balanced 1/4” output designed to interface with your recording device, compressor or EQ.

+4 Balanced Output
This is a balanced, low impedance XLR output connection compatible with professional recording and audio equipment.

Insert
The insert jack allows you to insert a processing device, such as a compressor, after the highpass filter and before the vacuum tube stage...Refer to the block diagram on page 14.

---------------------------------------------------------
"Line Level" ="High Impedance" = "TRS/Insert" = gear = "TRS cable" = "Phantom power not available"
"Low Impedance" = "XLR" = microphones = "XLR cable" = "Ony apply Phantom power once"

"Signal Flow" options:
(a) Mic to Pre-amp XLR input jack; pre-amp TRS output jack to compressor; Compressor output jack to Model 12 TRS combo jack; or

(b) Mic to Pre-amp XLR input jack; to compressor via pre-amp TRS Insert jack; pre-amp TRS output jack to Model 12 TRS combo jack; or

(c) Mic to Pre-amp XLR input jack; pre-amp XLR output jack to Model 12 XLR combo jack. Apply phantom power either from the pre-amp or the Model 12.

...compressor side chained/connected directly to pre

"Side-chaining" is the use of another separate signal source to control the compression of the main signal coming into the compressor. Thus my question: "why you would want/need to do that in your particular situation?"

 

[Max Relic]

Max,
Would you opt to place the hardware compressor side-chained with the pre-amp or inserted in channel 1 or 2 of M12?

Inserted in standalone preamp.
Sidechain is a configuration where the dynamics of an instrument is used to dynamically modulate the dynamics of another signal, i.e. a keyboard pad is rhythmically compressed following the bass drum peaks. Don't know if it is what you have in mind, anyway "sidechain" is a different thing than "insert" (or serial processing).

You mentioned going either XLR to TRS or XLR to XLR, but is TRS to TRS an option worth considering?

Listed options are high-to-low priority depending on impedance and level match.
The SA preamp TRS out has a nominal level of -10dB, so if you choose to pick the signal from there you will likely need to raise Gain on the Model 12. Yes, you can go this way as long as the noise floor is acceptable to you.

You also mentioned, "all the heavy lifting has taken place on the outboard gear." I watched a YouTube vid whereby the producer maxes out levels on outboard gear, then starts really low on M12 and gently raises to optimal level. Does this seem like a good way to work?
Many thanks,
Tommy

I suggest doing a search with "gain staging" to learn how to set up levels in a signal path. The forum has many interesting articles to read.

 

[shredd]

suggest doing a search with "gain staging" to learn how to set up levels in a signal path

“Gain staging: Learn It. Know It. Live It.”

 

[Max Relic]

@shredd

suggest doing a search with "gain staging" to learn how to set up levels in a signal path

“Gain staging: Learn It. Know It. Live It.”

...and why not, "Breathe It!"

 

[shredd]

Maybe - some things are as important to studio mastery as breathing…gain staging, routing, yada…whutz that called - “double-tracking”?!?

There’s a reason there’s only ever been a handful of Alan Parsons and Bob Clearmountain’s and Bob Ludwig’s and Brian Eno’s in the world…like I always say: studio mastery ain’t like makin’ pudding!

 

[Max Relic]

studio mastery ain’t like makin’ pudding!

Yep, it's more like cooking ("add compression and EQ to taste...")

 

[tommyzai]

According to Mr. A.I., "To use an external preamp with a Tascam Model 12, you can connect the preamp's output to the Model 12's input channels using a standard XLR or 1/4" cable, then adjust the Model 12's input gain to zero and use the external preamp's gain controls to set the signal level."

According to a user by the name of Dark TowerOfWesteros on Reddit, " You can definitely use an external preamp, and you will get better sounds if it's a good one! I've never tried running through the insert (I should try tho) I just run through the normal preamp inputs and I just turn the Tascam input all the way to zero so I can turn the outboard preamp signal up without clipping the Tascam preamp. You can even add some volume to the Tascam input preamp if you want and your signal has room to grow. It's just gain staging so be mindful you aren't over distorting or clipping anything. Unless you're trying to."

 

[tommyzai]

My biggest consideration at this point is whether to use the XLR/+4dB or TRS/-10dB out of Pre-Amp. I'm not sure which would match the M12 input better. I do know that if I go with XLR to XLR I will have to be mindful to turn the M12's phantom power off, whereas if I go with TRS to TRS or XLR to TRS it will be disengaged by default.

Are my assumptions correct?
Any further thoughts on which cable to use? I'm leaning TRS to TRS, but I am fluid.

Again, Mr. A.I., advised as follows:

For connecting your Summit Audio 2BA-221 to your Tascam Model 12, use the XLR output of the 2BA-221 and connect it to a 1/4" TRS (balanced) input on the Tascam Model 12 using an XLR to TRS cable.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• 2BA-221 Outputs:
  The 2BA-221 has both XLR and 1/4" TRS outputs. The XLR output is a balanced, low-impedance connection suitable for professional recording and audio equipment.
  
  
• Tascam Model 12 Inputs:
  The Tascam Model 12 has both XLR and 1/4" TRS inputs, with the XLR inputs intended for microphone signals and the 1/4" TRS inputs for line or instrument level signals.
  
  
• Connecting:
  Since the 2BA-221 is a line-level device, you should connect the XLR output to a 1/4" TRS input on the Tascam Model 12 using an XLR to TRS cable.
  
  
• Why TRS?
  The Tascam Model 12's TRS inputs are designed for line-level signals, which is what you'll be getting from the 2BA-221.
  
  
• Gain Staging:
  Remember to pay attention to gain staging when connecting your 2BA-221 to the Tascam Model 12. You may need to adjust the gain on the Tascam Model 12 to achieve optimal levels.

 

[tommyzai]

Mark Richards,
Please don't take offense. I merely listed what A.I. is suggesting, mostly out of amusement. Of course I came back here. I really appreciate the help and guidance by you and anyone who knows more than I do. But I'm still not clear on which cables to use out and in and what settings.
Tommy

 

[Mark Richards]

According to Mr. A.I.,

According to a user by the name of Dark TowerOfWesteros on Reddit,

Ok. If you choose to take the word of unvetted internet sources over the recommendations of professional audio engineers with decades of experience, I'm out of here. Hope you don't fry your low impedence mixer circuit when you feed it a high impedence line level signal. Bye-bye.

ps when someone takes the time from more important things to post answers to your questions, it's polite to at least acknowledge that effort with a "like" for the post.

 

[tommyzai]

It doesn't feel right to click LIKE on a post that indicates you are insulted and leaving. I do appreciate your advice, but I'm still not clear on something as simple as which cable to connect out and in. Suggesting that I go elsewhere and learn about impedance and gainstaging and recording in general is not helpful. I created this thread in hopes of finding a simple answer to a simple question.

 

[tommyzai]

Mark,
You have been extremely generous with your time . . . posting several times. I meant no harm. I would have appreciated it if your criticism of my delay in clicking LIKE was sent I'm a PM. And, I guess I could have PM'd this too. LOL.
Well, time to fry things . . .
Tommy

 

[shredd]

Gotta come down on @Mark Richards side here...
The guy is an absolute geenyus and an encyclopedia of studio knowledge, and has more experience with gear and recording than kenye west has drooling-idiot sycophants (errrr..."fans"...).

Meanwhile: "Mr A.I." is a vastly flawed, unproven, immeasurably unreliable resource with severely questionable ability to answer ANYthing with any degree of trustworthy reliability/dependability...let alone a highly technical subject such as this.
And by purposely choosing to search for answers there, rather than from reliable/trustworthy resources (in particular the one answering you directly, right here in this thread!) calls into question the degree of genuine interest you have in resolving your problem in the best possible manner and speaks to the extent of effort you're willing to put in to find real answers.

Good luck with that...especially if the routing/setup "Mr A.I." directs you to use fries your gear - I suspect you won't get much help with repair/service from "him"!!!