How would you connect this gear (via MIDI)?

[Ugly Bunny]

TLDR: I'm looking for the best way to be able to hit one REC button and have it record/sync to drum machine as well as synth arp/sequencer. I would likely record drums separately from synth, but it would need to be all connected so the same button would start all the gear, if this makes sense. Simply put, should the Model 12 be the master start/stop of the chain or can/should it be the slave?

My gear:

• Tascam Model 12 Recorder
• Arturia KeyStep Pro MIDI Controller/Sequencer
• Roland TR-8s Drum Machine
• Oberheim OB-8X Synth (and 3 other synths, some with built-in Arps)

All these items have MIDI, and I'd like my Arturia KSP to be the center of my studio (if practical). Since the KSP has 4 channels and 2 MIDI outs, I think its transporter controls can control everything. Essentially, I want to be able to push one button (Rec on the KSP) and the tempo will sync, the drum machine will start and be in time, and any sequences I have set up will play and be recorded.

I'm thinking:

KSP MIDI Out 1 > TR-8s MIDI In
TR-8s MIDI Thru > Model 12 MIDI In
(Audio from drum machine to stereo input on Model 12)

KSP MIDI Out 2 > Synth 1 > Synth 2 > etc.
(Audio from synths to audio inputs of Model 12)

In terms of making sure the Model 12 starts recording when I hit record on the KSP, what do I need to configure? Or do I need to slave the KSP to the Model 12 so it starts when the Model 12 starts and then just use the Tascam Model 12 as the primary transport controller?

Am I missing any vital info that will help you provide an answer? Thanks in advance!

 

[shredd]

Wow - a pretty complex problem...had to read it a coupla times. Then again, I also have to remember which way the pointy end of the git'r goes every time I sit down to play...

ANYWAY. I'm surely no studio wizard or MIDI-guru (there's other guyz here who ARE)...
BUT: I'd suggest that a scenario by which you set your KSP's MIDI config to be the Master (and whatever setting it is that enables external-machine control); and the other devices (Roland, Oberheim, and DP) all to be Slaves, with their settings set to receive control commands via MIDI.
This might involve some manual-reading to figure out HOW to do all this, and also whether the various devices are capable of such connections.

That should do it, right?
It's worth trying...meanwhile - hopefully the smart-ysh guyz here will chime in with their more experienced/knowledgable input. I don't remember what I had for dinner last night!!!

PS - utterly OSSUM screen-name!!!

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Thanks, @shredd - I enjoy the way you write

Yeah, so I watched a few videos last night and I'm still not sure how I'm gonna do it. Problem is, I'm going to want all my gear to start when I hit record, but I also won't want the tascam running and recording every time I use the KSP to start/stop my drum machine or keys.

I may have to just accept that it may not be viable to have everything hooked up at once, or at least everything connected in series at once. This is okay, though, as I'll likely not need to record both drums and sequencer at the same time, so it won't be a big deal to swap cables or turn down volume or whatever.

I just got this after owning the DP-32SD for a few weeks and having not even touched it because I've grown so used to all my gear syncing via MIDI and, for whatever reason, Tascam saw fit to remove MIDI from the SD series. I've read the 16 adn 24 versions of the Model also lack MIDI. What are they doing over there at TEAC? lol.

Anyway, my Model 12 should be arriving today, so I'll play with it and probably make a video since the video I really wanted/needed doesn't seem to exist

 

[Max Relic]

Premise: the Model 12 is designed to act as a MIDI Sync source only, in other words it can't synchronize to external clock thus any other MIDI equipment must be slaved to it. MIDI In is used only when the Model 12 is used as a MIDI interface (i.e. connected to a pc/MAC).
Your setup could be arranged like this:
- connect the Model 12 MIDI OUT to the KSP MIDI IN;
- connect all the other MIDI gear to the KSP MIDI OUTs*;
- on the Model 12 enable MIDI clock (chap. 9 of the OM);
- on the KSP press SHIFT>Utility>SYNC and choose MIDI or Auto (chap. 7.2 of the OM), this will make the KSP wait for external clock signal;
- if necessary set desired clock rate and output clock options.

Pressing Play or Record on the Model 12 should now start the Keystep Pro and make it advance at the tempo set in the Model menu.

*= to connect multiple MIDI gear use the daisy-chain method: the first device in the chain is directly connected to the sequencer (MIDI Out --> MIDI IN), then a connection is made from its MIDI Thru to the MIDI IN of the following device and so on. Please consider that each MIDI IN - MIDI THRU "ring" in the chain may introduce a slight latency, and as latencies sum up it may become noticeable for very long chains.

 

[shredd]

Thanks, @shredd - I enjoy the way you write

Thanks 'bunny...glad you appreciate/enjoy my weisenheimer demeanor. Not all do...everyone loves Chandler, but Ross is a sort of love/hate thing...

ANyway - I'm glad @Max Relic chimed in - he's one of the smartysh guyz I referred to, who truly understands this stuff and clearly has some experience wrangling it...and knows some stuff about I wasn't aware of (like the M12 being a Master only)...

At any rate - with MIDI's considerable capabilities, it can surely be config'd to provide at least some of the functionality you want.
I recall the wise and powerful Oz (known here as @Phil Tipping) posting a video about enabling an "SD" series (no MIDI) DP to utilize MIDI...might be worth watching, to get some ideas/solutions?

Good luck!

 

[Stew71]

Premise: the Model 12 is designed to act as a MIDI Sync source only, in other words it can't synchronize to external clock thus any other MIDI equipment must be slaved to it. MIDI In is used only when the Model 12 is used as a MIDI interface (i.e. connected to a pc/MAC).
Your setup could be arranged like this:
- connect the Model 12 MIDI OUT to the KSP MIDI IN;
- connect all the other MIDI gear to the KSP MIDI OUTs*;
- on the Model 12 enable MIDI clock (chap. 9 of the OM);
- on the KSP press SHIFT>Utility>SYNC and choose MIDI or Auto (chap. 7.2 of the OM), this will make the KSP wait for external clock signal;
- if necessary set desired clock rate and output clock options.

Pressing Play or Record on the Model 12 should now start the Keystep Pro and make it advance at the tempo set in the Model menu.

*= to connect multiple MIDI gear use the daisy-chain method: the first device in the chain is directly connected to the sequencer (MIDI Out --> MIDI IN), then a connection is made from its MIDI Thru to the MIDI IN of the following device and so on. Please consider that each MIDI IN - MIDI THRU "ring" in the chain may introduce a slight latency, and as latencies sum up it may become noticeable for very long chains.

I've run MIDI devices from both Model 12 and DP24. Both only run as Master, as noted above. But running into your primary controller (KSP... I've use an Akai MPC this way too) should be fine. You may need to play with MMC settings depending on whether you want your gear to respond to start/stop from the M12.

I've also tend to use a 1-in/2-out adaptor to avoid needing to chain devices too much.

 

[-mjk-]

A MIDI hub made my studio life trouble free. Everything just works.

 

[mixerizer]

Agreed, MIDI management solutions are a huge benefit. I use mio interfaces by iConnectivity, which are very feature packed with filters, remapping of channels and best of all lets me use MIDI to/from my MIDI instruments and host computers anywhere within my studio, either w DIN cable or using Ethernet.

https://www.iconnectivity.com/midi-interfaces-1

 

[Max Relic]

A MIDI hub made my studio life trouble free. Everything just works.

No doubt at all. I think it would be easy for @Ugly Bunny to build up experience starting with the simplest setup and then gradually find his way toward efficiency.

 

[-mjk-]

@maxrelic undoubtedly a wise approach.

 

[TheFez]

Hey- I'm new here, but I figured it out with my Model 12 & Keystep Pro.

I'm basically doing the same thing as you: I have a Keystep Pro controlling a Microkorg via MIDI, and will eventually be adding some other synths/drums through Midi to be sequenced by the Keystep.

I want to do some quick recording with the Model 12, so if I am going to record multiple sequenced tracks into the Tascam on different days, I need to make sure that everything will be properly synced up.

So bottom line is- the Model 12 has to be the master clock, and the keystep has to receive its clock/tempo from the Tascam.

After a bunch of fiddling around, I got it working.

Now when I start PLAY or REC on the Tascam, the Keystep starts and plays its sequence for the Korg and the Korg plays it.

If I had the Korg's L/R outputs plugged into inputs on the Model 12, I could record it. Let's say Tracks 7&8.

Then tomorrow I could make a different sequence on the Keystep, choose a different synth sound on the Korg , plug the Korg into tracks 9&10 and when I hit REC on the Tascam, it will send the same clock data via MIDI to the Keystep, and it will all be in time with the 7&8 tracks I recorded the day before.

So everything can stay in time with the master clock (coming from the Tascam)

This is all in thoery right now, because I've got the keystep starting/stopping and tempo-controlled by the Tascam, but I haven't recorded anything yet, so that will be the next test.

One thing I did notice is that it doesnt work well if you are halfway through a track, hit pause, back up a little and then hit play.

The Keystep takes awhile to start if you do that- like seconds.

So when you are recording tracks that you want to be in time, it seems like you have to start from the beginning of the track.. which in certain situations can be a bummer, but oh well.

Anyway, if you are still stuck with setting it up, let me know and I'll walk you through all the stuff to set on both the Tascam and the Keystep to make it work.


UPDATE- I did the recording test & It works. Recorded 3 seperate tracks in seperate sessions & everything is in time.

theres 1 or 2 little things to be aware of, but basically it works fine.

Here is the test track I made with the model 12:

 

[Max Relic]

@TheFez welcome to the forum, human or AI generated being
The BetStep Pro is a pattern based sequencer with no song mode: though patterns can be chained on the fly, apparently it doesn't receive Song Position Pointer MIDI message (the manual doesn't mention it so to me this is a big no) so when you scrub the Jog Wheel on the Model 12, or just use Stop/Pause + Rewind/FFW followed by Play, the BeatStep doesn't know you changed the start point.
If you are an AI generated person I'll have to charge you 12.000.000 Bitcoin for the above piece of human knowledge.
Humans can get it for free, just put a smile on your face

 

[TheFez]

Yes, I did figure that out, my Keystep Pro doesn't like it if you move to a section of the song. It wants you to start from the beginning. No big deal, really.. just gotta work around that and listen for the part to come up.

the wonky thing is that if you had a midi sequence of a synth sound that only comes in during the middle of the song, I'm not sure how you would get that on a Tascam track, since you'd have to start the song from the beginning on the tascam.. and if you are using midi clock from the tascam, then the Keystep Pro wants to start the sequence as soon as you hit record. - so it would be playing the whole time.

so i have to figure out a technique for that. I was thinking maybe i could just record the sequence playing all the way from the start, and then during mixdown, keep that track muted and then unmute it when its supposed to come in, but that's kinda janky. I'd have to re-mute it when its part stops, and that can cut off any FX trails, etc that are coming from the synth.. not to mention hearing prior trails from before the part starts when you initially unmute it- thats not an ideal technique.

not really sure how else to do it on the Tascam though...

I guess i could just keep the BPM the same, and not use the Tascam's clock, but rather just start recording and wait until the part comes up, and then hit "play" on the keystep manually at just the right moment using my awesome human sense of timing




I might try and see if the markers help with this

if anyone else has tackled this problem, let me know!

 

[Max Relic]

Try this:
• set Count-in to off
• switch BAR Display on
• when in stop use the jog to locate the first bar/beat of the section you wish to re-record
• push record button on the track to be re-recorded
• put the BeatStep Pro in MIDI Sync mode and ready to start
• start recording on the Model 12, the BSP should be in sync on the beat
• go out of recording by using transport controls on the Model 12; this may require some trial and error to be done exactly on the beat, UNDO is your best friend here.

Another technique, inherited from the multitrack tape era, is called Punch Recording (or Punch in/out rec). It basically consists in playing back the recorded track and press a switch (punch) in time to enter recording mode, then pressing it again to switch back to playback mode.
When done correctly the overdubbed section is virtually indistinguishable from the first take.

Notes:
• IMO markers are a potentially interesting and useful feature that in practice aren't reliable enough when it comes to beat-tight recording, i.e. compared to a DAW or a MIDI sequencer.
• Try to record the track dry if you plan to re-take some parts or reverb/delay trails will work against you; an alternative is to use one track per take in order to keep Fx trails, and mix them down as soon as possible to free a track for further recordings.
• Another method is to create a new song, perhaps by cloning the original, and use it to make all the takes you need, export the mixdown and import it onto a track of the original "main" song. Longer but more flexible.

Search the manual for the above mentioned concepts.

 

[TheFez]

Thanks for the tips

when you say "beatstep pro" do you really mean "keystep pro"?

I'm thinking the punch in could work- do you know if punching in will send the midi signal to the Keystep to start the sequence?

For short spans, as long as I punch in on the beat and the BPM is the same, it should be fine.

 

[Max Relic]

@TheFez, my bad, I insisted talking of the BeatStep Pro (though nobody asked about it) probably because I happen to own one Thanks for taking my attention on that.
Hopefully the same principles apply to both Arturia devices when it comes to MIDI synchronization.
The Model 12 sends MIDI clock exactly on start command, so it shouldn't be an issue on your usecase. Anyway it would be nice to hear a feedback on your findings.
If punch is invoked on the run, i.e. in the middle of a song being played, clock is already running and the KeyStep/BeatStep is following it; if the punch is done from stop anywhere in the middle of the song, according to the settings I suggested (bar display + counter placed precisely at bar/beat), the Keystep/BeatStep should start in sync with the Model 12 and follow MIDI clock.
It's easy to verify if the above holds true, try it and let us know.

P.s: practice tells each device has its own opinion about clock precision, all devices drift over time just like humans.

 

[TheFez]

OK cool- next chance I have, I will sit down and test both of those methods and report back results.

also- do you need the footswitch to punch in/out?

 

[Max Relic]

An external temporary footswitch is recommended for punch in/out. No need to spend a fortune on such a simple device.

 

[Stew71]

Clock can often take a bar to settle, though some devices are better than others (M12 with any of my Roland gear seems right from the word go for example, MPC a little slower).

I usually record full passes when sync'd, and usually an empty bar at the start. But a couple of other options (to drop/punch in mid-song) might be:

1) start playback a bar or two ahead of the point you will drop in, to see if clock settles. I've had mixed results with this, perhaps it's to do with SPP as mentioned above.

2) don't sync - set bpm on the target device (or sequencer) and trigger playback manually at the right point (could work for short sections before it starts to drift)

3) re effect tails - stop the target sequencer at the end of the phrase (may require quick fingers, depending how busy your sequence is), then stop the M12 recorder when the tails have ended.